An Interview with Archbishop Claudio Gugerotti
A native of Verona, Italy, Archbishop Claudio Gugerotti has been apostolic nuncio in Ukraine since 2015. Previously he was apostolic nuncio in Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan (2001-11), and then Belarus. His responsibility for Catholics in Ukraine—including those of the Eastern-rite Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church— encompasses those living in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics. In late 2018 the editor of the East-West Church Report met with Archbishop Claudio at the nunciature in Kyiv, where he recounted his experience of visiting the separatist-controlled territories.
How frequently have you travelled to the areas of Ukraine under separatist control?
Five or six times. Every year I try to go during the Easter and Christmas periods to see people in the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk, and also Stakhanov [Ukrainian: Kadiivka], where we have a small community. We also have small groups of Catholics in other places, but the biggest communities are in the cities. I always visit both the Roman Catholic and the Greek Catholic communities. It has been easier for me to go as a bishop, because diplomats are not advised to go there by the Ukrainian government.
In Donetsk we have four Greek Catholic priests and one Roman Catholic priest, and in Luhansk one Greek Catholic priest and one Roman Catholic priest. I would say that is one third of the clergy who were present before the conflict. I must admire these priests, because in spite of the troubles they stay there. Are those communities under pressure? The religion law of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic contains a re-registration deadline of 15 October 2018, and a 1 March 2019 deadline is stipulated by a similar law of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. All our communities are trying to re-register there, but it is difficult to imagine how to do that, because we do not have a partner with whom we can discuss re-registration. For obvious reasons, I do not have many meetings with the local authorities. I have the impression that if re-registration is denied, it could be followed by the closure of these churches, and even temporary imprisonment for some religious communities, particularly the Protestants and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is difficult to understand what the authorities.
Are those communities under pressure?
The religion law of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic contains a re-registration deadline of 15 October 2018, and a 1 March 2019 deadline is stipulated by a similar law of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. All our communities are trying to re-register there, but it is difficult to imagine how to do that, because we do not have a partner with whom we can discuss re-registration. For obvious reasons, I do not have many meetings with the local authorities. I have the impression that if re-registration is denied, it could be followed by the closure of these churches, and even temporary imprisonment for some religious communities, particularly the Protestants and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is difficult to understand what the authorities are going to do. One problem is that they are asking for signatures, and many people are afraid of possible retaliation. This collection of signatures is very uncomfortable for them.
Editor’s note: The registration procedure for a local religious organization set out in the religion law of the separatist Donetsk People’s Republic requires personal data for at least 10 founders. Similar legislation in the separatist Luhansk People’s Republic requires personal data for at least 20 or 30 founders. The text of the law mentions both figures.
How are Catholics faring more generally in the separatist-controlled areas? The Catholic Church has never been very widespread there. Of course, the Greek Catholics were more in number, but their general situation has changed radically; many, many Catholics have left the area. The Roman Catholics were already few; originally, they were Polish communities.
When I visited, the number of worshippers was greatly reduced due to the curfew. When we have a service at night it is difficult for people, because they have to stay five or six hours in the church afterwards waiting for the curfew to be lifted. Because of this, we celebrated the Easter vigil at four o’clock in the afternoon, for example. So I can say that in Donetsk, some 60 Roman Catholics were present in church, and in Luhansk some 40. Greek Catholics were even fewer. Most were elderly or children. Some also returned for the occasion; people do travel from Ukraine or Russia into the Donbass area.
Would the numbers attending worship services have been much higher before the conflict?
Oh yes, absolutely. It is very difficult to get transport— it is costly to travel, and the economic conditions are very poor. It is particularly difficult for elderly women to leave their homes. And then there is another factor that is sometimes greatly underestimated: their health is very weak. The stress is so great that they can be sick for nothing; they can even die for nothing. They can die from diseases that, in another situation, could be absolutely cured. It is very difficult to find medicines apart from hospitals. Many people are hospitalized for bronchitis or the flu, just so they can get medicines. And in my conversations, which I often had individually to allow people to feel more at ease, people said that the main problem they have is obtaining tranquilizers. These are the main kind of medicines they look for. Four years of this bombing is absolutely terrible, and people are always afraid that something will happen during the night. So it is not only the children who are in a terrible situation of stress, but also the adults. It is difficult for them to sleep, and they just jump when there is the least noise. What they need are the medicines to keep calm. But it is very difficult for them to go beyond the front line to get medicines, because sometimes they have to wait 16 hours at a checkpoint. And if it is minus 20 Celsius [minus 4 Fahrenheit], it means they are more likely to die waiting in line than in their bed without medicines. These are the things that they told me.
And there are only a few checkpoints between the government- and separatist-controlled areas?
From Luhansk you either go by car through Donetsk, which is a long way, or you can cross the only bridge by foot. You have to walk, and then there is a bus on the other side. It takes a lot of time, and you never know exactly when they will close the checkpoint. The Red Cross has built a kind of shelter now, but before that there was no shelter, so you were in the open air for the whole night. Even if people go by car through Donetsk they sometimes have to wait for hours and hours. Another problem is the landmines. The first time I went, there was no toilet at the line, and so my driver decided to go into the woods. But people came out shouting, “Don’t even move a step! You’ll die!” So the situation is still very dangerous
How have people responded to your visits?
In Stakhanov they were not expecting my visit, and there was a lot of weeping. They said, “Nobody wants us. The Ukrainians don’t, the Russians don’t. We are of no use to anybody.” At the same time, they were consoled at the idea that the Pope had sent his representative to pray with them and to bless them, in spite of the fact that their number is not so huge. That touched me very much. In Donetsk, they gave me some very simple gifts for the Pope. When I brought them to the Pope, I took a picture. They put this picture behind the main altar of the church, and then I reproduced it with the Pope’s signature and gave one copy to each of the Catholic families in the area. For us that is something very simple, but for them it is something even miraculous. They are deeply touched by these small signs.
Is the Catholic Church providing aid to those affected by the conflict?
The “Pope for Ukraine” project [https:// popeforukraine.com.ua] collected around 11 million Euros in all the parishes of Europe, and Pope Francis personally added five million, so quite a considerable sum was raised. We spent this money on both sides of the front line, providing people displaced by the fighting with food, medicine, and heating. That is another terrible problem, not just because there is no heating—no fuel and a great shortage of electricity—but because the bombing destroys all the windows. So even in very low temperatures, the best you can do is to replace the windows with wood; if you put in glass, it will be destroyed again the very next day. People have no light, they cannot open the windows, and so there is a very somber atmosphere.
Is this the case even in the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk?
I did not see that in the cities, because I never visited homes there—I was not allowed. But in the villages it was possible to see this on both sides of the front line; the situation is very similar. As a city, Donetsk seems to be more normal. Things work more or less, and you see people walking in the streets, however difficult it is. In Luhansk, many homes are closed up–people are afraid of losing them–and poverty seems more evident.
In Donetsk our church was slightly damaged—one corner was taken away by a bomb—but now it has been more or less repaired. The Greek Catholic cathedral has been seriously damaged—that is still visible—and many of the surrounding buildings are closed or housing displaced people, either because the authorities have put them there, or because the church provides them with shelter.
The situation is so upset and unstable. Even soldiers came to me and asked, “Father, do you know when it’s going to finish?” The impression is that it is unending. It lasts and lasts and lasts.
