An Interview with Kamila Dembińska and Magda Wroniszewska

The Club of the Catholic Intelligentsia [Polish: Klub Inteligencji Katolickiej]—colloquially known by its Polish acronym, KIK—is headquartered in a quiet alley in Warsaw’s Old Town. In late August 2022 the editor of the East-West Church Report met two of its members there: Kamila Dembińska, a childcare worker, and her friend Magda Wroniszewska, an architect, both from Warsaw.

The East-West Church Report earlier featured a portion of the editor’s interview with Kamila and Magda concerning their active support for the many Ukrainians fleeing to Poland from the current war in their homeland. [See the East-West Church Report vol. 30 (2022), no. 3, 1-4.] The portion below sees the two friends discussing their past and present experience within the Catholic Church in Poland. The interview took place in English.

How did the Club of the Catholic Intelligentsia form?

Kamila: The Club of the Catholic Intelligentsia, or KIK for short, is one of the oldest NGOs in Poland. It was founded in 1956—a difficult time in our history [Editor’s note: In that year an anti-Communist uprising was violently suppressed]. A group of people came together who wanted to do something towards rebuilding our democracy. One of their methods was just to spend time together and to raise their kids in community. Throughout the Communist decades we were active as an organization independent from both the Catholic Church and the state.

What is your personal motivation for becoming involved in KIK?

Kamila: My whole family has long been involved in KIK. My parents were involved in the pro-democracy movement here in Poland. That is how most of the core members joined, and why they are here. So it was something natural, also for my kids. For them it is obvious—they are also in our kids’ and teenagers’ groups, and I’m pretty sure they will continue to be active here.

Magda: I’m in KIK because my husband was a kid in KIK. His father—my father-in-law—was not only in KIK but also in the pro-democracy movement called KOR [Komitet Obrony Robotników, or Workers’ Defense Committee]. He was a doctor helping workers, such as those in the Solidarność [Polish: Solidarity] movement during strikes. With all those connections, this was a good place for people who wanted to do something to change the political situation. A lot of Poland’s first democratic government in 1989 came from KIK.

Kamila: One of KIK’s founders, Tadeusz Mazowiecki, was the first prime minister.

During the Communist period, did KIK form a separate subculture that did not toe the official line?

Kamila: It was not welcomed by the Communist regime, of course. But we weren’t in opposition.

Magda: During the 1960s and 1970s KIK had many contacts with Western as well as Eastern Bloc countries. It was therefore open to the West at a time when it was difficult to face in that direction. But these were not official contacts—they were always just between families and friends. For example, very often Polish émigrés in Western countries would send their kids to spend holidays at KIK camps in Poland.

Was KIK treated with suspicion by regime loyalists?

Kamila: Not too much. It was never controlled to the extent that our activity was blocked or the organization shut down.

Magda: We were smart!

Why was the authorities’ attitude so lenient?

Magda: They did not view KIK as dangerous. They thought that it was just a club for people to talk and read together. They did not think it was anything special.

What is KIK like today?

Magda: We have branches all over Poland. The one in Warsaw is the largest and most active.

Kamila: It includes 5,000 families—a huge group of people. Of course, some are more active than others. But our branch’s section for families is the strongest in Poland. There was an attempt to create similar sections for families in other cities 20 years ago, but it didn’t work.

Does the name of the club mean that it is intended for Catholic intellectuals?

Kamila: No, it is open to everyone. I am proof of that! You don’t need a higher education to become a member.

Magda: In order to join you have to be invited by two current members. You don’t need to show a document from your university or your bishop! (Laughs.)

What are some of KIK’s activities?

Magda: As Kamila said, the biggest section is for families—that group organizes summer and winter camps for our children, and also meetings for them around twice a month during the rest of the year. It is a little like Scouts, with a Christian ethic. There is also a group for journalists which produces a magazine called Kontakt.

Kamila: We act in areas we consider important. One very active group has links with people in Belarus and Ukraine. Our aim is to support democratic processes in those countries. Another group, called Drum Bun, is for students. The name is Romanian and means, “Have a good trip!” I was one of those involved in setting it up around 25 years ago. As students, a group of us had begun traveling to the mountainous region of Bukovina in northern Romania and had fallen in love with that part of Europe.

A couple of days ago I visited the Museum of the Blessed Fr. Jerzy Popiełuszko here in Warsaw. Its narrative has a succinct explanation for the Church’s opposition to the Communist regime in Poland: “The task of the Church is to tell the truth about human dignity and freedom.” How far do you feel that this spirit continues to animate the Catholic Church in Poland today?

Kamila: Today the Polish Church is more human than divine. The situation is quite bad—a lot of problems have been discovered, like corruption and pedophilia.

Magda: The Catholic Church wants too much power. When key people in the Church dress in gold and drive luxury cars, it makes people think again. To me, the genuine Church looks like Taizé [ecumenical community in France known for its simplicity and community work]. For many years now, it has been possible to attend religious classes in public schools, but my kids—who go to public schools—don’t attend them because I think it would damage their faith.

Did corruption and pedophilia become issues straight after the fall of the Communist regime in 1989 or more recently?

Kamila: We don’t know if it’s recent or not…

Magda: I’m sure people were also talking about it in closed groups many years ago, but we have now started to discuss it openly.

Kamila: Here at KIK we set up a special telephone line for people who were abused within the Church. It was one of the first reactions when the abuse scandal became public.

Magda: Our phone line is available once a week, which is not enough, of course. For a few hours we offer a psychologist and a lawyer. If they wish, a person can call without identifying themselves—just tell their story and find help. This is very important.

Kamila: The result of these scandals is that young people—and even our generation—don’t want to have anything to do with the Church.

Magda: This is why KIK is such an important place to me—a group of friends, but also people who think in the same way. In recent years I was looking at what was happening inside the Church, and I was thinking, “This is my church, but I do not want to be a part of it.” Of course, there is the Church on earth, and people are only human, but you still don’t want to have something in common with those people.

Does the younger generation of priests inspire hope?

Magda: There is always hope! But the number of candidates wishing to enter seminary is declining, so I don’t know what the future will hold.

Do any older priests inspire confidence?

Kamila: Yes, but they are a minority, unfortunately. The question is, even if there were a lot of people who wished to become priests, who would educate and prepare them? That is why I am not so optimistic.

Still, there are some places in Poland known for authoritative clergy. For example, when I am deciding where to go to Mass with my family, we choose churches belonging to the Dominican Order because we can be sure of the quality and appropriateness of the preaching there.

 So you find yourself choosing parishes?

 Magda: In Warsaw we do have this choice, yes. 

 Do the current trends mean that the Catholic Church will become much smaller in Poland?

 Magda: Probably. As is already the case in France, for example. 

 Kamila: I believe the most important thing would be to rebuild the true value of the Church—then people would want to join. 

 Magda: It is part of our human nature to want to be in a group. But for that, there would need to be some kind of revolution in the Polish Church.